fuzzy sounding D string problem

[babybird]

hello,

quick question (possibly)

I have had my strings replaced with jargers. A and D are soft and G and C medium. A, C and G are great but the d string is strangely disappointing. I am not sure whether I have an expectation that it will sound like something else but as an open string it is ok. Just ok. Nothing special like the clear ring of the A. But when I put my fingers down it becomes quite fuzzy, almost muffled. The A and D were professionally fitted and the sound post is fine I have been told. My teacher has played and the D sounded ok so maybe I am hearing something different when playing it than listening to it in a different position. I dont have the same problem with any other strings so am a bit baffled.

any tips or possible explanations would be welcome. My teacher says there is often one string that frustrates. I just wish it was not the D!

BB

[cellotech]

When strings are put on the bridge will often move. I'd have that by a checked by a luthier first. Unless the soundpost was improperly cut it usually doesn't move when strings are changed.

Jargar Ds can be problematic. After you have the bridge checked I would try a Medium. Depending on the cello, a higher tension string (going from a soft to a medium) may improve things. On the other hand, the higher tension may just make the cello more inarticulate. My cello, for example, hates high tension strings. I use a soft Passione for my A and a medium Passione D. The medium definitely adds a bit of clarity.

If a bridge adjustment doesn't help let me know and I'll recommend some strings to try. Since a bridge adjustment typically just takes a few minutes, and you'll end up paying shop minimum, which typically covers 20 minutes, don't give up until you're happy with it or have reason to believe that the luthier doesn't quite know whats going on, in which case I suggest you find a new one.

If it makes you feel any better, the D string can often cause problems for people.

[babybird]

Thank you for the reply...

The A and D were put on by a luthier who also straightened my slightly wonky bridge (I think he steamed it and straightened it) and added a bit of vellum (?) to raise my A string slightly. I then changed the C and G myself...but the bridge seems fine. I will get it checked again though. Having just bought the A and D (and still owing the shop for the C and G) I feel apprehensive about buying another D - though playing is preferable to eating!

I would appreciate any suggestions for a new D - preferably not something desperately expensive if possible...

It is certainly reassuring to know that the D can be problematic. I do feel better!

[cellotech]

I'm 95% sure that this is a bridge problem. Changing any string, or even tuning a lot with the pegs will pull at the top of the bridge. Any string will affect the whole bridge, so its extremely likely that putting on the G and C changed the alignment under the D, and to a lesser extent, under the A. Don't worry about this, I doubt you did anything wrong. I find myself checking my bridge on a daily basis.

One thing you could do is ask your luthier to make you a bridge guide, just have them cut a stiff piece of tagboard to fit snugly between the bridge and the fingerboard right between the D and G strings. I urge you to be very cautious if you move your bridge on your own, but a guide can be useful to at least clue you into what may be going on when your cello starts sounding sick.

If you do want to try adjusting your bridge on your own you need to use a very specific technique. Place your cello on your lap, back down, with the scroll off to the right side and the endpin off to the left. The bridge should be right in the middle of your lap, pointing up at your face. Place your thumbs across from each other, one on the fingerboard side, the other on the tailpiece side, right at the top of the bridge. Start between the D and G strings. You need to use considerable force, but don't jerk things, slow, constant pressure is the way to go. Some people will show you a different way, where you simply hold the cello like you're playing, and move the bridge from under the strings. DON"T EVER DO THIS!! You have much less control over the movement of the bridge and you risk moving the feet of the bridge, which will affect the sound much more than moving the top.

My first recommendation for strings would be to go to a Jargar Medium, if that makes things a lot better I'd even try a Jargar Forte sometime down the road and try that. If that doesn't work I would try Larsen's for the A and D. They are probably the most popular A and D strings, but I don't typically care for them. After Larsen's, try Evah Pirazzi Soloists. After that try Permanents. Just to re-iterate, I doubt you'll need a new string after you get your bridge realigned.

I'll try to clarify things a bit:

If, after your bridge is fixed, you still don't like the soft Jargar, try the medium.

If the medium makes things...
...better: keep it or try a forte. A Forte might be to much tension for your cello. Mediums are the most common tensions for all strings.
...worse: try Evah Pirazzi A and D, medium soloists.

If you go through all of those strings and like the feel, but not the sound of...
...Jargar softs or mediums: try Larsen mediums. Soloists will be higher tension than the regulars, if Jargar Mediums were better than Jargar Softs, use the soloists, if the softs were better use the non-soloists. Go with medium Larsens either way. They will be brighter and have a rounder sound than Jargars.
...Evah Pirazzi's..try Passione mediums. They are even lower tension and have a rich, dark, pearly sound. I use these and love them.

I'm not sure exactly where Permanents fit in, tension wise, but I know that they are very good when used on the right cello and have a very bright, warm tone.

Larsens are probably the most popular A and D strings today, though I don't care for them. Lots of people really like them though.

Velum, or parchement paper, is commonly used to raise the string a bit in winter, since the bridge drops due to low humidity, or to keep the string from cutting into the groove in the bridge as quickly.

As much as I like supporting local shops, they often have significantly higher prices than you can find online.

Prices do fluctuate, but here's where I commonly shop for strings:

+quinnviolins.com - almost always best price
+iustrings.com - very limited selection, currently only Spirocore Tungsten and Larsen soloist, but by far the best prices
+sharmusic.com
+johnsonstrings.com
+swstrings.com
+concordmusic.com

And one last thing. If you want some incredibly G and C strings, try spirocore tungstens. They'll almost always be an incredible improvement over other strings, such as Jargars.

Sorry for the long post, but there's a lot of information to cover.

[babybird]

Thank you so much for a fabulous response. It is very much appreciated. I will let you know how it goes.

I just thought of one more thing which may have an effect - I play a 3/4 size but all the strings that have been put on are full size. Would this matter?

[cellotech]

Yes. That will matter. A string is designed to vibrate at a certain length, with a certain tension and mass. If you decrease the length but hold everything else constant the pitch will increase. So if you have a shorter string length than the string was designed for you will have to play it at a lower tension. That will usually, but not always, mean that while it may be easier to play, you won't get as much power and it may be susceptible to you overplaying it, meaning that you can work the string harder than it can take and it will squeak.

Most companies don't make strings for smaller cellos unless you go with really cheap strings, which, despite their correct measurements, will not sound as good as the Jargars you have right now. Depeding on the cello you may not even notice much of a difference in switching to a 3/4 set. The only good quality string that I know of that comes in fractional sizes is Evah Pirazzi. Because your cello is a 3/4 I would bump those up in my recommendation. Since you seem to like the other 3 strings, however, I would imagine that Jargars will end up being just fine for you. Most fractional cellos use full size strings anyways, despite the fact that its mathematically incorrect.

Becaue a Jargar soft is already low tension, and it is even lower on a 3/4 cello I would definitely try a medium AFTER you get your bridge checked and decide if you like the adjustment or not.

[babybird]

Thank you again for that...

Right...bridge is fine so I have a medium D on now. It sounds much better - very loud in comparrison! It is a little bit unpredictable with odd squeals but I am going to give it time to settle down and for me to get used to it. Is it right that the string touches the A winding as it goes over it? I never really looked before. Now I have string paranoia! The A is not as easy to play now - again a bit squeaky but still the overall sound is a lot better. I think its just a change in bowing needed. I had no idea that just one string could affect everything else so dramatically. Now the long 'which strings should I use?' discussions are totally understandable!!

[cellotech]

Glad the medium helped. Its very common for one string to affect the others, its a change in overall tension on the instrument, after all.

I wouldn't worry about the D and A touching (you did mean in the pegbox, right?) Its common on student cellos, and even more so on smaller instruments.

Give it some time to break in, I find Jargars to be pretty good right from the start, and to be fully set after about a week of good playing. Its possible that you will need a medium A as well after this.

[babybird]

change in situation - I found I was over stretching on the 3/4 cello so have got a full size - a Prima 100, excellent condition and I love it! I have had my Jarger strings put on by a luthier and the cello checked over and its fine. After playing for a bit I have the same fuzzy D problem and am starting to feel I am going mad! I know my bow is not great quality and I need to save and upgrade, but the A sounds great and C and G sound fine to me. Its just the D which is not ringing clear. Maybe I am hearing what I want to hear in my head and its not matching with what I am playing - which may just mean that I am hearing something I am not up to playing yet!! Looking at you previous advice I was thinking of trying the Evah solists on A and D but I am struggling to afford all this with lessons too - just buying the cello means diet! I wonder if I am just not being careful enough with cleaning the strings etc so will pay more attention to that...there is velum under the A so maybe under the D may be useful? I have been listening to a lot of Yo Yo Ma. I may just have ideas above my stations again!

[cellotech]

I'm glad you found a cello you like!

Can you clarify for me? When you said you were over stretching on the 3/4, do you mean that you would consistently and easily reach too far between notes? And remind me what strings you have on? It was a soft A, and medium D, G and C?

I'm going to reiterate my previous advice:

Have a luthier check the bridge.

If that doesn't work, try a different string as per my suggestions in an earlier post. I might suggest going back to a soft D, if you currently have a soft A.

[babybird]

Hello!

Re the over stretching - yes, exactly that...

The D string is much better - I had a wolf tone! I now have a little device thingy and it is all so so much better and I am less inclined to knock my head against the wall! I am trialling a couple of lovely bow. one of which fits my hand so nicely that a proper bow grip is almost within the bounds of possibility. Nothing to complain about at the moment! Hurrah!

Thank you for all your help...

[cellotech]

I'm glad to hear things are better. To be honest the idea of a wolf tone on the D had never even crossed my mind (I'm a bit ashamed to admit that) but it makes perfect sense now that you say it. Wolf tone eliminators can work well for that, and apparently it has.

Happy practicing and bow shopping!

[tiandao]

Wolfs on a D are very rare, since maker usually force these wolfs in between notes. As long as the rest of the cello sounds good, it should be alright.

I also strange wolf on my cello, right between c and C sharp, and getting close enough will set it off. Wolf eliminator kill the sound of my cello, so I have to give the cello a squeeze and pull whether I feel a wolf coming.

~Lucian